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Posted By: Nri Malayalee October 27, 2013

Cäenbnse Gähpw {]NmcapÅ Zn\¸{Xamb ‘e dn¸»n¡’bpsS Øm]I ]{Xm[n]À bpPo\ntbm kv-Ime^mcnbpambn {^m³knkv amÀ]m¸ \S¯nb kpZoÀLamb A`napJ¯nð \nóv Iptd tNmtZym¯c§Ä . HtÎm_À 1-\v ‘e dn¸»n¡’ {]kn²oIcn¨Xv.

kz´wt]cnsâ XncsªSp¸papXð thdn« hgnbnð kôcn¡pIbmWv {^m³knkv amÀ]m¸. amÀ]m¸amcpsS km{¼ZmbnI coXnIfnð \nóv `nóamWv At±l¯nsâ hm¡pIfpw {]hr¯nIfpw. s]klmZn\¯nse ImepIgpIð ip{iqjbnð kv{XoIsf DÄs¸Sp¯pIbpw k`bpsS A\pimk\§tfmSv AanXhnt[bXzw Imt«sïóv {]kvXmhn¡pIbpw kzhÀK{]WbnIsf hnebncp¯m\nsñóv ]dbpIbpw sNbvXv bmYmØnXnIhmZnIsf sR«n¨psImïncn¡póp ]m¸. k`tbmSpw k`ma¡tfmSpw kwkmcn¨ncpó ap³KmanIfnð \nóv `nóambn s]mXpkaqlt¯mSv kwkmcn¡pó ]m¸bmWv {^m³knkv

{^m³knkv amÀ]m¸bpambpÅ IqSn¡mgvN Ignª sNmÆmgvNbmWv (k]vXw_À 24) \SóXv. km´ amÀSbnse At±l¯nsâ `h\¯nð, Hcp taibpw \meôv ItkcIfpw Nphcnsemcp s]bvân§pw Hgn¨mð Ae¦mc§sfmópanñm¯ apdnbnð sh¨v. AXn\pw apt¼, Rm³ acn¡pthmfw ad¡m¯ Hcp t^m¬ hnfnbpw Dïmbncpóp. D¨Ignªv cïv aWnbmbncpóp. dnMv sN¿pó t^m¬ FSp¯t¸mÄ A¸pd¯v Fsâ sk{I«dnbmWv. hndbv¡póiЯnð ]dªXv – ”amÀ]m¸bmWv t^mWnð, Rm³ t\tc IWÎv sN¿mw.”

”ltem, CXv {^m³knkv amÀ]m¸bmWv.” sse\nsâ adpXebv¡ð ]cnip² ]nXmhnsâ iÐw C§s\ ]dbpt¼mgpw Fsâ sR«ð hn«pamdnbncpónñ- ”A§v Fsó hnfn¡psaóv {]Xo£n¡m¯Xn\mepÅ sR«enemWv Rm³.”
”AsX´mWv AÛpXs¸«Xv? Fsó t\cnð ImWWsaópsïóv Fgp¯b¨Xtñ? F\n¡pw AtX B{Klapïv. kabw \nÝbn¡m³ thïn hnfn¨XmWv. Rm³ Ubdn Hóv t\m¡nt¡ms«. _p[\mgvN ]änñ, Xn¦fmgvNbpw. sNmÆmgvN Xm¦Ä¡v kuIcyamhptam?”
”kuIcyamWv ]nXmth”
Cu kw`mjWw F§s\ Ahkm\n¸n¡Wsaóv F\n¡dnbnñ, Rm³ tNmZn¡póp- ”Cu t^mWneqsS F\n¡v A§sb BenwK\w sN¿mtam?”
”XoÀ¨bmbpw. Fsâ hIbpw Hcp BtÇjw. AXv ]nóoSv t\cn«pw Xcmw.”

Cäenbnse Gähpw {]NmcapÅ Zn\¸{Xamb ‘e dn¸»n¡’bpsS Øm]I ]{Xm[n]À bpPo\ntbm kv-Ime^mcnbmWv CsXgpXnbXv. ]{Xw CSXp]£¯mWv. ]{Xm[n]À ssZhhnizmknbñm¯ tkmjyenÌpw. temI¯nð Gähpw A\pbmbnIfpÅ aX¯nsâ ta[mhnbpambn At±lw \S¯nb A`napJw AXpsImïpXsó IuXpIIchpamWv.

amÀ]m¸ t\cn«v t^mWnð hnfn¨Xnsâ sR«ð amdmsX At±ls¯ ImWm³t]mb kv-Ime^mcnsb IqSpXð sR«epIÄ Im¯ncn¡pópïmbncpóp. At±l¯nsâ tNmZy§Ä¡v amÀ]m¸ \ðInb adp]SnIÄ tdma³ It¯men¡ k`sb¸än ]Xnhv [mcWIfpÅ Bscbpw sR«n¡pw.

DZmlcW¯n\v CâÀhyq XpS§pw apt¼ kv-Ime^mcn ]dª Xamibv¡v amÀ]m¸ \ðInb D¯cw Xsó. amÀ]m¸ Xsó ]cnhÀ¯\s¸Sp¯ntb¡pw Fóv kplr¯p¡Ä ]dsªódnbn¨bpS³ kv-Ime^mcntbmSv ]cnip² ]nXmhv ]dªp – ”aX]cnhÀ¯\w FóXv `àntbmsS sN¿pó Akw_ÔamWv. \mw ]ckv?]cw AdnbpIbpw tIÄ¡pIbpw NpäpapÅ temIs¯ ¸änbpÅ Aht_m[w hÀ[n¸n¡pIbpamWv thïXv. ASp¡pIbpw AIepIbpw sN¿pó ]mXIÄ ]ckv?]cw hntÑZn¡póXmWv temIw. ]t£, {][m\Imcyw Ahsbñmw \òbnte¡mWv \bn¡pósXóXmWv.”

k` Cóv t\cnSpó {][m\ shñphnfnIsf´msWó tNmZy¯n\v ]m¸ \ðInb D¯c¯nsâ Imcyhpw hn`nóañ.

”Cóv temI¯n\papónse Gähpw henb XnòIÄ bphm¡fpsS sXmgnenñmbvabpw hr²cpsS GIm´XbpamWv. hr²À¡v ]cnNcWhpw Iq«pw thWw; bphm¡Ä¡v tPmenbpw {]Xymibpw. ]t£, AhÀ¡v CsXmópanñ… hÀ¯am\Ime¯nsâ `mc§Ä¡Snbnð sRcnªpsImïv \n§Ä¡v Pohn¡m³ Ignbptam? `qXIme¯nsâ kvacWItfm, Fs´¦nepw krãn¨psImïv `mhnbnte¡v t\m¡m³ tamltam CñmsX, IpSpw_anñmsX?…CXmWv, Fsâ I®nð k` t\cnSpó Gähpw ASnb´camb {]iv-\w”- {^m³knkv amÀ]m¸ ]dªp.

amÀ]m¸bpw Ahnizmknbpw – tNmtZym¯c§fnð \nóv

BßÚm\nIfnñm¯ aXw shdpw X¯zimkv{XamWv

k`bnse kv{XoIfpsS ]¦ns\¡pdn¨pw \½Ä NÀ¨ sN¿pw. k`Xsó kv{XobmsWóv HmÀ¡Ww…

]cnip²]nXmth, AXv cmPy§fpw kÀ¡mdpIfpw cm{ãobI£nIfpw ssIImcyw sNt¿ï cm{ãob, [\Imcy {]iv-\atñ?
AsX, Xm¦Ä ]dªXv icnbmWv, ]t£, AXv k`bpsSbpw {]iv-\amWv, {]tXyIn¨pw k`bpsS ImcWw, Cu AhØ icoc§sf am{Xañ Bßm¡sfbpw _m[n¡pw. icoc¯nsâbpw Bßmhnsâbpw Imcy¯nð k`bv¡v D¯chmZnXzw tXmóWw.

k`bv¡v D¯chmZnXzw tXmóWw Fóv ]dbpt¼mÄ C¡mcy¯nð Ct¸mÄ k`bv¡v D¯chmZnXzw tXmópónñ FómtWm a\Ênemt¡ïXv? A§v AXns\ B hgn¡v \bn¡psaópw?
hensbmfchphsc Aht_m[apïv, ]t£, AXv t]mcm. AXv IqSpXð thWsaómWv F\n¡v tXmópóXv. CXv am{Xañ \mw t\cnSpó {]iv-\w, ]t£, AXmWv Gähpw ASnb´chpw \mSIobhpamb {]iv-\w.

A§v F\ns¡gpXnb I¯nð AXv ]dªn«pïv. a\xkm£n¡v kzbw`cWapsïópw \mtamtcmcp¯cpw kz´w a\xkm£nsb A\pkcn¡Wsaópw. Hcp amÀ]m¸ ]dbpó Gähpw [ocamb ImcyamWnsXómWv F\n¡v tXmónbXv.
Rm\Xv hoïpw BhÀ¯n¡mw. Hmtcmcp¯À¡pw F´mWv \òbpw Xnòbpsaóv kz´amb Bib§fpïv. AbmÄ [cn¡pó coXnbnð B \òsb A\pKan¡m\pw XnòtbmSv s]mcpXm\pw kzbw Xocpam\n¡Ww. A{XbpwaXn Cu temIw Hcp \ñ Øeambn amdm³.

k` AXv sN¿póptïm?
Dïv. AXmWv R§fpsS ZuXy¯nsâ Dt±iyw, P\§fpsS {]kàhpw A{]kàhpamb Bhiy§Ä Xncn¨dnªv R§Ä¡mhpw hn[w AXv t\Sns¡mSp¡pI. {InkvXobkv-t\lw Fómð, F´msWóv Xm¦Ä¡dnbptam?

DÆv, F\n¡dnbmw.
\½psS IÀ¯mhv {]t_m[n¸n¨Xpt]mse AXv A\yt\mSpÅ kv-t\lamWv. AXv aX]cnhÀ¯\añ, AXv kv-t\lamWv. kz´w Abð¡mct\mSpÅ kv-t\lw, s]mXp\òbv¡v cpNn]Icpó ImcyamWXv.

\nsót¸mse \nsâ Abð¡mcs\bpw kv-t\ln¡pI.
IrXyambpw AXpXsó.

A\yt\mSpÅ kv-t\lw XtómSpÅ kv-t\lw t]msebmsWóv tbip ]dªp. ]t£, Bßkv-t\lw (\mÀknknkw) ]ckv-t\lw t]mse km[phmsWópw \ñXmsWópw Øm]n¨p NneÀ.
Bßkv-t\lw, B hm¡v F\n¡v Cãañ. AXv XtómSv XsóbpÅ AanXamb kv-t\lamWv. AXv \ñXñ, AXv _m[n¨hcpsS Bßmhn\pam{Xañ, Ahcpambn _ÔapÅhÀ¡pw AhÀ Pohn¡pó kaql¯n\pw KpcpXcamb lm\nIÄ hcp¯pw. Cu am\knIsshIeyw _m[n¨hÀ an¡hcpw [mcmfw A[nImcapÅhÀ BsWóXmWv bYmÀY{]iv-\w. ]et¸mgpw taemfòmcmWv Bßkv-t\lnIÄ.

]e k`mtaemfòmcpw A§s\bmbncpóp.
Rm\nXns\¸än F´mWv IcpXpósXódnbptam? kz´w cmPk`mwK§fpsS apJkvXpXn tI«v tImcn¯cn¡pó \mÀknknÌpIfmbncpóp ]et¸mgpw k`m[y£òmÀ. Cu cmP[m\n ]m¸m `cW kwhn[m\¯nsâ IpjvTtcmKamWv.

sNdp¸¯nð¯só At§¡v kz´w \ntbmKw a\Ênembncpópthm?
Cñ, hfsc sNdp¸¯nenñ. Fsâ IpSpw_¯nsâ B{Klw Rm³ asäs´¦nepw s{]m^j³ XncsªSp¯v tPmensNbvXv ]Ww k¼mZn¡Wsaómbncpóp. Rm³ kÀhIemimebnð tNÀóp. AhnsS F\n¡v Gsd _lpam\hpw {ItaW kulrZhpw tXmónb Hcp A[ym]nIbpïmbncpóp. AhÀ Hcp Xo{h IayqWnÌpambncpóp. AhÀ F\n¡v ]et¸mgpw IayqWnÌv ]mÀ«nbpsS ]pkvXI§Ä hmbn¡m³ Xcpambncpóp. ]nð¡me¯v AÀPâo\bnse tkzÑm[n]Xy`cWIqSw Ahsc AdÌv sNbvXv t`ZywsN¿pIbpw h[n¡pIbpw sNbvXp.

IayqWnkw Xm¦sf BIÀjnt¨m?
AXnsâ `uXnIhmZ¯n\v Fsâtað bmsXmcp kzm[o\hpw Dïmbncpónñ. ]t£, kXykÔXbpw [ocXbpapÅ hyànbnð \nóv AtX¸än ]Tn¨p FóXv hfsc KpWIcambncpóp. AXnse kmaqlnIamb Nne hi§Ä Rm³ Xncn¨dnªp. ]nð¡me¯v AXv k`bpsS kmaqlnI {]Xybimkv{X¯nepw Rm³ Isï¯n.

tPm¬ t]mÄ cïma³ amÀ]m¸ XÅn¸dª hntamN\ssZhimkv{Xw emän³ Atacn¡bnð hym]Iambncpóp.
AsX, AXnse ]e AwK§fpw AÀPâo\¡mcmbncpóp.

amÀ]m¸ AhÀs¡Xnsc s]mcpXnbXv icnbmsWóv At§¡v tXmópóptïm?
AhcpsS {]Xybimkv{X¯n\v AXv cm{ãob\ndw \ðIn. F¦nepw Ahcnð ]ecpw am\hnIXsb¸än DbÀó [mcWIfpÅ hnizmknIfmbncpóp.

BßÚm\nIÄ k`bpsS Imcy¯nð {][m\amsWóv A§v IcpXpóptïm?
AXv apJyamWv – BßÚm\nIfnñm¯ aXw shdpw X¯zimkv{XamWv

At§¡v BßÚm\¯nsâ \ntbmKaptïm?
F´v tXmópóp?

Cñ, F\n¡§s\ tXmópónñ.
Xm¦Ä icnbmbncn¡mw. F\n¡v BßÚm\nItfmSv kv-t\lamWv. kz´w PohnX¯nð hn. {^m³knkpw AXmbncpóp. ]t£, F\n¡v B \ntbmKapsïóv tXmópónñ. \mw B ]Z¯nsâ Bg¯nepÅ AÀYw AdnbWw. BßÚm\n IÀa§fpw hkvXpXIfpw e£y§fpw CShIbnse ZuXywt]mepw Agns¨dnbWw Fón«v ]ca]Zhpambn sFIys¸SpóXv hsc DbcWw. Ipd¨p\nanj§tf Dïmhq AXv. F¦nepw Hcmbpjv-Imew \ndªp\nð¡pw.

Fsó¦nepw At§¡v AXv A\p`hs¸«n«ptïm?
A]qÀhambn. DZmlcW¯n\v tIm¬t¢hv Fsó amÀ]m¸bmbn XncsªSp¯t¸mÄ. AXv kzoIcn¡póXn\v ap¼v Að¸t\cw Hcp apdnbnð GI\mbn Ccn¡m³ Rm³ A\phmZw tNmZn¨p. Fsâ Xe apgph³ iq\yambncpóp. F\n¡msW¦nð Fs´ónñm¯ Bi¦bpw. Rm³ I®pIfS¨v DÅnepÅ Fñm Nn´Isfbpw CñmXm¡n, B Øm\w Xnckv-Icn¡póXns\¸änbpÅ Nn´ t]mepw. F\n¡v Bi¦Ifpw hnImc§fpw Hópw CñmXmbn. B \nanjw hensbmcp {]Imiw Fsâ DÅnð \ndªp. AsXmcp \nanjta DïmbpÅq. ]t£, F\n¡Xv hfsc t\cw \oïXmbn tXmón. AXv a§nbt¸mÄ Rm³ Fgptóäv IÀZn\mÄamÀ Im¯ncn¡pó apdnbnte¡v t]mbn. AhnsS tai¸pd¯v Rm³ kzoIcn¡m\pÅ D¯chpïmbncpóp. Rm\Xnð H¸n«p.

At§¡v Ft¸msg¦nepw ssZhm\p{Kl¯nsâ A\p`hw Dïmbn«ptïm?
AXv Bcpw Adnbnñ. A\p{Klw t_m[¯nsâ `mKañ. AXv \½psS BßmhnepÅ shfn¨¯nsâ AfhmWv. AXv Adnhpw bpànbpw Añ. Xm¦Ä¡v t]mepw A\p{Kl¯nsâ kv?]ÀiapïmImw.

Ahnizmknbmb F\nt¡m?
A\p{Klw Bßmhnsâ ImcyamWv.

Rm³ Bßmhv DÅXmbn hnizkn¡pónñ.
Xm¦Ä hnizknt¡ï, ]t£, Xm¦Ä¡pw AXpïv.

]cnip² ]nXmth, Fsó ]cnhÀ¯\w sN¿m³ At§¡v Dt±iyansñóv ]dªp, {ian¨mepw A§v hnPbn¡pw Fsó\n¡v tXmópónñ.
AXv \ap¡v Adnbnñ. Fómepw F\n¡v B Dt±iyanñ.

\n§Ä {InkvXym\nIÄ Cóv Hcp \yq\]£amWv. amÀ]m¸bpsS ho«papäambn Adnbs¸Spó Cäenbnð t]mepw. Nne kÀthIÄ A\pkcn¨v, ]Ånbnð t]mIpó It¯men¡cpsS F®w 15 iXam\¯nepw XmsgbmWv.
R§Ä Fópw \yq\]£w Bbncpóp. R§fpsS e£yw aX]cnhÀ¯\añ; P\§fpsS taml§Ä, taml`wK§Ä, \ncmiIÄ, {]Xymi Fs´ms¡sbóv {i²n¡pIbmWv. bphm¡fnð \mw {]Xymi ]p\xØm]n¡Ww, hr²sc klmbn¡Ww, `mhn¡pthïn hmXnepIÄ Xpd¡Ww, kv-t\lw {]Ncn¸n¡Ww. ]mhs¸«hcnð ]mhs¸«cmIWw, ]pd¯m¡s¸«hsc DÄs¡mÅn¡Ww, im´n¡p thïn DZv-t_m[\w \S¯Ww.

tbip Nqïn¡m«nbXv t]mse Abð¡mcs\ \nsót¸mse kv-t\ln¡Ww. AXv \S¡pópsïóv At§¡v tXmópóptïm?
\nÀ`mKyhimð Cñ. kzmÀYX hfcpIbpw A\ytcmSpÅ kv-t\lw IpdbpIbpamWv sNbvXXv.

h¯n¡msâ NphcpIÄ¡pÅnepw sam¯w k`bpsS Øm]\LS\bnepw euInIiànItfmSpÅ kv-t\lw iàamsWómWv F\n¡v tXmópóXv. A§v B{Kln¡pó Xcw Zcn{Zamb, ZuXyt_m[apÅ k`sb B Øm]\w Iogv-s¸Sp¯n FómWv F\n¡v tXmópóXv.
kXy¯nð A§s\bmWv Imcy§Ä. Cu taJebnð \n§Ä¡v almÛpX§Ä Im«m³ Ignbnñ. Pohn¨ncpó Ime¯v {^m³knkv t]mepw Xsâ hyhØbpsS N«§Ä AwKoIcn¸n¡m³ thïn tdma³ A[nImct{iWnbpw amÀ]m¸bpambn ZoÀLamb NÀ¨IÄ \S¯nb Imcyw Rm³ HmÀan¸n¡s«. HSphnð At±l¯n\v A\phmZw In«n, henb amäw hcp¯epItfmsSbpw A\pcRvP\§tfmsSbpw.

At§¡pw AtX ]mX ]n´pStcïn hcptam?
Rm³ AÊoknbnse {^m³knkñ. F\n¡v At±l¯nsâ iànbpw alXzhpw Cñ. ]t£, Rm³ tdmansâ _nj¸pw It¯men¡ temI¯nsâ amÀ]m¸bpamWv. Rm³ BZyw Xocpam\n¨Xv F«v IÀZn\mÄamcS§pó Hcp kwLs¯ Fsâ D]tZãm¡fmbn \nban¡pIbmWv. cmPk`mwK§fmbñ, Fsâ hnImc§Ä ]¦nSpó hnthIimenIfmbn.

Ipd¨pZnhkw ap¼v A§v It¯men¡À ]uc{]iv-\§fpw cm{ãobhpambn _Ôw ]peÀ¯Wsaóv A`yÀYn¨p.
Rm³ It¯men¡tcmSv am{Xañ kòt\m`mhapÅ Fñm a\pjytcmSpamWv kwkmcn¨Xv. ]uc{]hÀ¯\§fnð Gähpw {][m\amWv cm{ãobw. AXn\v aX¯ntâXñm¯ IÀataJebpapïv. cm{ãobØm]\§Ä \nÀhN\a\pkcn¨v atXXcamWv. Ah {]hÀ¯n¡póXv kzX{´aÞe§fnepamWv. Fsâ ap³KmanIsfñmw AXpXsóbmWv ]dªXv, IpdªXv Iptd Imeambns«¦nepw. AXnsâ aqey§sf Bhnjv-Icn¡pIbpw {]Ncn¸n¡pIbpw sN¿pI Fó ZuXy¯n\¸pdt¯¡v k` t]mInñ. IpdªXv Rm\pÅ Imet¯mfsa¦nepw.

C\n Rm³ Hcp tNmZyw tNmZnt¨ms«, ssZhhnizmkanñm¯, atXXchmZnbmb Xm¦Ä F´nemWv hnizkn¡póXv? Fgp¯pImc\pw Nn´n¡pó a\pjy\pamb Xm¦Ä F´nse¦nepw hnizkn¡pópïmhWw, {]apJamb Hcp aqeyw DïmhWw. kXykÔX, At\zjWw, s]mXp\ò XpS§nb hm¡pIÄsImïv D¯cw ]dbcpXv. Cu temI¯nsâ, Asñ¦nð {]]ô¯nsâ Xsó k¯ F´msWómWv Xm¦Ä IcpXpóXv FómWv Rm³ tNmZn¡póXv. \mw BcmWv, FhnsS \nómWv hcpóXv, Ft§m«mWv t]mIpóXv Fsóms¡ Fñmhcpw tNmZn¡pó tNmZy§Ä kzbw tNmZn¡Ww. Ip«nIÄ t]mepw AXv kzbw tNmZn¡mdpïv.

F\n¡v B tNmZyt¯mSv \µnbpïv. Fsâ D¯cw CXmWv Rm³ AkvXnXz¯nemWv hnizkn¡póXv. B tImiIebnð \nómWv Fñm cq]§fpw tZl§fpw DïmIpóXv.
Rm³ hnizkn¡póXv ssZh¯nemWv, It¯men¡m ssZh¯neñ. A§s\sbmcp It¯men¡m ssZhanñ. Rm³ tbiphnepw At±l¯nsâ AhXmc¯nepw hnizkn¡pópïv. tbip Fsâ Kpcphpw CSb\pamWv. ]t£, ssZhw, B_, ]nXmhv {]Imihpw krãmhpamWv. CXmWv Fsâ AkvXnXzw. \½Ä X½nð hfsc AIeapsïóv tXmópóptïm?
R§Ä BenwK\w sNbvXp. hmXnente¡pÅ sNdp]SnIÄ Ibdn. Fsóbm{Xbm¡m³ htcïXnsñóv Rm³ ]m¸tbmSv ]dªp. ]t£, ]pôncntbmsS At±lw AXv \ntj[n¨p.

”k`bnse kv{XoIfpsS ]¦ns\¡pdn¨pw \½Ä NÀ¨ sN¿pw. k`Xsó kv{XobmsWóv HmÀ¡Ww…”
R§Ä lkvXZm\w sNbvXp. cïphncepbÀ¯n Fsó A\p{Kln¨psImïv At±lw \nð¡póp. Rm³ ImÀ hn³tUmbneqsS ssIhoin.

CXmWv {^m³knkv amÀ]m¸. k` At±ls¯t¸msebmhpsa¦nð, AXv F´mIWsaóv At±lw B{Kln¡pw t]msebmhpsa¦nð, AXv Hcp bpKkw{Iaambncn¡pw.

HtÎm_À 1-\v ‘e dn¸v»n¡’ {]kn²oIcn¨ A`napJ¯nsâ ]qÀWcq]w Cw¥ojnð hmbn¡m³ ChnsS ¢nIv sN¿pI

http://www.repubblica.it/cultura/2013/10/01/news/pope_s_conversation_with_scalfari_english-67643118/

IS¸mSv : amXr`qan

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